Kacey McCallister never wasted time and tears when he lost his legs from an accident when he was just six years old. His parents didn’t treat him any different from other kids who had to do their chores and go to school. What’s amazing is that Kacey found out that even after losing his two legs, he continually pushes himself to his limits to rise up to life and personal achievements like a Spartan Race Challenge and in the process, inspire others to do the same. Learn why the things that suck can make you a stronger person.
I’m so blessed because we have a guy that is a total stud. He’s overcome so much. His name is Kacey McCallister. If you can imagine this, he was six years old, he was in Utah in this old rural town that the old one lane this way and the other one the other way. He was with his parents, his uncle and aunt and all of the sudden, like a lot of little kids who are six years old, he wanted to dart across the road and get to the other side to see his relatives. As he did that, this big eighteen-wheel gigantic truck came barreling down the highway and ran over him. Imagine that. He lost both legs. There are lots of things that we can do in life about these things that happen to us and what are you going to do about it. A lot of people just sit down and pout and put their head in their lap and it’s over. This guy has done just the opposite. He’s got a book out called Rise Up. His whole life has been about that. There isn’t anything that he hasn’t done. We talked about Spartan Races. We talked about him a being a four-year, three-sport athlete in Oregon. It’s just one thing after the other and there’s just no quit in this guy. Really a beautiful soul. This is the type of guy you need to listen to. This is the type of guy that’s going to really motivate you and get you out of bed in the morning. With that, stay tuned.
As always, go in, rate and review on iTunes, Finding Your Summit. If you want to find out any more info on me, you can find me at MarkPattisonNFL.com. The podcast has continued to grow and I’m very appreciative of that. Without further ado, let’s talk to Charles, The Captain.
Listen to the podcast here:
Kacey McCallister: On Conquering The Spartan Race Challenge And How To Rise Up From Adversity
I am just really blessed, grateful, all those words that go along with that because I’m interviewing a guy named Kacey McCallister. Kacey hails from Salem, Oregon. Just really excited to have Kacey on the pod. Kacey, how are you doing?
I’m doing great. It’s a beautiful rainy day up here in Oregon.
I’m from Seattle so when you talk about rain, I know every flavor of the season, how it goes. I’ve brought people from California up to the Northwest and they go, “It’s so green.” I’m like, “Because there’s a lot of rain.”
There is that tradeoff. I love how green it is.
There’s a great friend of mine down here in California, David Gordon. We were at a Rose Bowl game a couple of weeks ago. He had heard of your name somewhere and he goes, “I just heard your pod or you did a radio interview or something. This guy, Kacey McCallister, I think could be really awesome to have on your show.” I was like, “What’s that all about?” I went back, I researched you just a little bit and my jaw dropped. I called him back up and said, “Not only did I research him, I reached out to him,” and you were so kind to get back to me pretty quick and said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” Here we are. You are the type of guy that fits exactly into what we’re trying to do with this pod. Just to give the audience a setup, the reason why I called this Finding Your Summit is because that’s essentially what I had to do. I’ve had some great successes in life playing in the NFL, D-I college football, climbing mountains, starting businesses, but I’ve also been punched in the jaw a number of times and I had to figure out a way to get back up. When I was coming up with this whole idea about starting a podcast, there are so many people and so many amazing people out there where you talk about overcoming adversity and finding their way in life and you certainly 100% fall into this category.
I’m just going to jump right in and let’s talk about how this all happened. We’re talking to Kacey and Kacey is a guy who is a double amputee and what he has accomplished in life which we are going to get into is just truly amazing. I think the first thing that I’m really curious about is when we start talking about your double amputee. We start from the fact that you were six years old when this happened. If you can go back to that time, where was that? What happened? How did this all play?
As a six-year-old, I think it adds a little bit of flavor to know that I’m a redhead. I am stubborn and quite active. While I was a six-year-old, we were living in Wyoming at the time, a little town called Kemmerer but the incident actually happened down in Utah in another small town known as Roosevelt. We were down there for my uncle who was about to leave on a two-year mission for our church. They send him off and say goodbye. After the church meetings were over that day and we were standing on the edge of the road, and you have to understand this wasn’t a big highway. It was just a divided highway that you see in a lot of places so it wasn’t very big but we’re standing there waiting to cross. I had siblings and cousins already on the other side at my grandma’s house. I was standing there with mom and dad waiting to cross this road. My dad says, “There are two cars coming and a truck.” I was pretty excited to get across the street and after the two cars went by, I took off running. About midway through that run, midway across the street, I paused. Maybe realizing that the truck was there, I don’t know. Then I continued running in front of the truck. The truck wasn’t just a pickup truck. It was a semi-truck that was coming down on me, a big old tanker, and I jumped. I tried to get out of the way and jumped at the last second but the truck grabbed my legs and pulled me underneath the wheels of the semi-truck.
I can’t imagine that. I’ve got two daughters. One is 19 and 21 but as I was raising my kids, there’s this old infomercial that I would see all the time when the guy would say, “When you see a ball, you know there’s a kid coming after it.” Driving by parks, I always go slow just because kids dart and that’s what they do. It sounded like that’s what you’re doing. You’re six, you don’t know any difference, and you’re trying to pay attention but you’re not and you’re all over the board and then off you go. I can’t even begin to imagine as a parent, and we will get into that because you are a parent was well, what your parents were thinking about as you dart and now this gigantic Kenworth or whatever kind of eighteen-wheeler truck is coming flying down the street and now you’re caught up in it. What happens next?
You are right, I can’t even imagine. I have a six-year-old. My parents were right there. My uncle says I might have even been holding my dad’s hand when I started running so I can’t even imagine. After the truck stopped and I was laying there on the pavement, my dad, he pretty much ran right after me but there was no way he could stop what happened. He held me there on the road until the ambulance got there. If you think about it, this is a little kid, a six-year-old just hit by a semi. I came out of that thing with one of the legs totally amputated, ripped off by the truck and the other one wasn’t in much better shape, pretty banged up. I can only imagine my parents thought I was gone. They had quickly rushed me to the hospital and then Life Flighted me to the nearest children’s hospital, which was a few hours away in Salt Lake City.
They got me there and then they started patching me up. Of course, they did have to remove my right leg as well and pretty high up. When you think of amputees, usually there’s a bit of stub remaining but I’m pretty high up. I had to start learning how to live this new life without legs. Honestly for me as a six-year-old, it didn’t come as a shock which sounds weird but when I woke up, and I don’t remember this, but I guess I reached down to where my leg should have been and my mom right there probably a pretty emotional time, “How’s our kid going to react to this?” I reached down where they should have been and she said, “Kacey, you don’t have your legs anymore. They’re gone.” I guess I nodded and then laid back in the bed and that was my big reveal. That was the moment where I learned I didn’t have legs. What’s even more important than that though was how she followed up. The doctors had told her coming out of the hospital, “You need to not do stuff for him. He needs to learn to do stuff on his own,” and honestly my mom and dad took this to heart. It wasn’t too long after I was out of the hospital that I was doing chores. I had to clean my room. I had to do laundry, figure out how to vacuum the house, sweep the floors. Eventually as a teenager I had to mow the lawn. They took that little advice from the doctors seriously that I had to learn how to do everything.
How long where you in the hospital? I think what you just told me is you get literally whacked by this gigantic truck, you’re a little kid, and one leg comes off and they whisk you off to the hospital, your other one is barely hanging on and they need to take that. How long where you laid up in the hospital while all these injuries that you were having to overcome and heal up and learn how to function or walk? How long was the whole rehab process?
I was in there for a solid month to start and then they sent me home, which I was still in bed but they sent me home to heal up, just be there in my house and that was another couple of months, then I was back to rehab. All in all, there were probably four or five months that I was in and out of the hospital recovering. As soon as that recovery process was over, in fact the day I left the hospital for good, my dad took me down to the State Capital where they were holding a race. I did a one mile race right out of the hospital.
Was there any grieving that loss of literally limb for you? Or you were so young, you got over it and with the support of your parents, you just started moving forward?
I didn’t. I never had a time where I cried at the heavens, “Why me?” I did take it and strive and whether that is just the kind of kid I was or that I was so young, it definitely helped being young but I definitely wasn’t going to sit around and bemoan that fact too much. I was ready to start living life. I was a happy kid and I wasn’t going to let this throw a wrench in my life.
You talked about you’re now released from the hospital and you go out and you run this first race, this one miler, did you have prosthetics? How did you do that?
I just did it in my wheelchair. The first day I got my wheelchair, I zoomed all over the hospital and it was awesome. I did have prosthetics. They did train me on them but I loved the wheelchair because I was fast.
The one thing I love that you just talked about was your mom in particular, I’m sure your dad was right with this as well, but really looking you straight in the eye and like, “This is your path. You’ve got to take ownership of this. We’re not going to help you from the standpoint of being a crutch of doing everything for you. You’ve got to do it yourself.” You talked about vacuuming and making your bed and cleaning your room and all the things that any other kid would do. Obviously, that served you very well in life to really understand about having to go after things and not let it sit around and moan and groan about things that happened to you, make it happen. It’s awesome. Great attitude.
It started from something small. Though the one story that’s told my uncle came over to the house and I was in my bedroom. It was dark and I said, “Uncle Kurt, will you turn on that light switch for me?” He was right by it and my dad holds that arm and stops my uncle and he says, “No, Kacey. You do it.” I had to slowly scoot across the room and I couldn’t even reach the light switch. It was way too tall. I had to figure out a way. I think I grabbed a bat and proceeded to turn on the light switch. You’re right, my parents, both my mom and my dad taught me about being tough, about figuring out a way to do something even if it seems impossible.
I was doing my research on you, it seemed like, and by the way the same thing for me but we are talking about a different situation, but sports was really your tonic in terms of, “This is what’s going to get me out of bed. This is what’s going to motivate me and this is where I’d find my joy and happiness.” At what age, maybe it would have been at six all the way up, you never stopped but where you said, “Just because I have this adversity, I’m not going to let sports not be a part of my life.” Where did that kick in?
Even before I left the hospital I was already planning on sports. In fact months after, whenever the baseball season started, I was out there playing Little League. I was out there hitting off the tee. The first season, my dad pushed me around the bases, which honestly was quite frightening to have your dad barreling you around the bases but the next season, playing baseball again when I got out of my chair and started hitting from the ground. It was just months after I got out of the hospital that I started doing sports. It never stopped and I always looked for the next sport, the next challenge, the next summit in my life. Throughout school, there are times I played basketball. In high school, it was cross-country, wrestling and track. There really was never a time that I didn’t participate in sports.
When you talk about track, again, are you talking you would run in a wheelchair or run in prosthetics? How would that work?
I used a race wheelchair on the track. My first couple seasons, I started out in my regular wheelchair just pushing that around the track until somebody said, “Would you like to go faster?” I’m like, “Yeah. Of course I want to go faster,” and let me use their race wheelchair.
I will know that you are four-year, three-sport athlete, obviously a bright guy, 3.87. That’s just about getting after it. It’s just really amazing. Your high school years were spent in what town?
Keizer, right next to Salem.
You moved to Oregon and that’s where your formative years really went down. Did you go into college after that?
I did. Right out of high school, I went down to the University of Arizona. They wanted me down there to do wheelchair racing for them. I went down there for a year and raced for them but then I decided that I wanted to go on a mission trip, bringing that whole thing full circle. I win and I was able to serve a two-year mission for my church and after that I went back to college to finish my degree.
In this evolution of you, where did you meet your wife?
We grew up in the same area but she was a couple of years older than me in school at least, in age too. I really didn’t know her all that well. I saw her at some church functions and she ran cross-county. I got to see her around and I knew her sister was my age, so I knew her sister better. It’s not like I had ever really hangout with her sister. When I went on a mission trip, there’s a training center in Utah and at the training center, we were actually there at the same time. She eventually went off to Costa Rica. I actually went back down to Arizona for my mission. We wrote back and forth as friends but then when I got home from my mission, I looked her up in one of those paper phone book thingies and called her up and the rest is history.
I’m just trying to be as transparent as possible and obviously she didn’t. Was there any thought about your disability from the standpoint of the loss limb that you had gone through? There are challenges, certainly you’ve gotten over them, but was there any conversation about that or she just loved you for who you were?
In fact, one of the first times while we were dating in the very beginning, I went to her backyard and started cleaning her parents’ backyard. For those who know the Pacific Northwest, it was covered in blackberry bushes. I was out there in the back hacking away and doing some damage to some blackberry bushes. From the very beginning, the disability which it’s not a disability, was never an issue. In fact, it’s become even less so to the fact that she doesn’t see that at all. One time, she was walking around the house cleaning up and she picked up a sock and held it in front me saying, “Is this your sock? Did you leave it off the ground?” I chuckled and said, “No, I didn’t.” She realized very soon after that that of course it wasn’t my sock. No, she doesn’t see that disability because it’s not anything that really affects me at all. I can do absolutely anything.
Actually, I want to change my word because I called it a disability because I’m just learning here but it’s really in your case an ability. It’s really taken that word and turning it around and making it to positive, which you’ve done.
Disability is saying that something is not able to do. I wouldn’t even call it a handicap. I’m an amputee for sure but there is nothing in that that defines who I am. It’s maybe being an amputee but definitely not handicapped, definitely not disabled, definitely not crippled.
You’ve mentioned a couple of times here where you were at church and you went on a mission. Obviously, you’re a religious guy. Do you think your faith has been tested or do you think it has just strengthened about what you’ve been able to do in terms of inspiring others and maybe looking at this as a gift?
I definitely believe it’s a gift. In fact, I believe that God had this in place whether that be before he even came to Earth or maybe it was in that instant but he saved me. There’s no doubt about that. A six-year-old just doesn’t go up against the semi-truck and survive without some divine guidance. God saved me for a purpose. Now, I’m able to do some pretty incredible things. I can affect people in ways that they haven’t before. I can show them what truly is possible in life despite anything that’s happened to them.
How do you do that?
I wish I could say there was some great plan but honestly, I go out there every day and do those daily things. I’ve got a family. I’ve got five kids. It is still a struggle everyday to make sure I’m being a good dad, try to be a good athlete, try to stay fit and healthy. It is a day-by-day struggle. It’s a day-by-day learning process. Honestly in today’s world of Google where answers are instantaneous, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that sometimes learning and growth takes time. Sometimes challenges are not solved within the day, within a 30-minute episode of whatever the TV show we’re watching is. Life is about that struggle. Honestly, that struggle is what has made me stronger. The struggle with just life is what made me who I am today. As I talked to people that are going through their own struggles, I try to help them realize that, “It sucks. Sometimes it totally sucks but that is what’s going to make you strong and day-by-day you’ll get through it.”
I read a quote and it said, “Happiness is a journey, not a destination.” Everything you just said, I really believe that all these things that I have done in my life, the ups and the downs and being in all these, in some cases amazing situations and in other cases, yucky. I went through a split with my ex after a long-term marriage. It has really set the stage for where I am today in terms of being able to impart some of that knowledge and that wisdom as I talked to a variety of different people and listen to their stories. It’s a blessing in that way. I would never have known that twenty years ago because you were out there every day in the wheel to try and do, grind away and make it happen. You always want it but that wasn’t part of the plan. The plan is what the plan was and as I move forward.
It’s got special interest to me because I talked to the founder of the Spartan Race, Joe De Sena who was on the podcast and it was a lot of fun to talk to him. You have sunk your teeth into what they are doing and you completed the Trifecta of the Spartan Race. Let’s talk about Spartan Race. Let me set that up and I want you to talk about it. The Spartan Race is this crazy adventure race where they’ve got ten, twenty obstacles of climbing over things, going under a barbed wire, running through fire, carrying logs up a mountain. It’s just awful and everybody is so fired up about doing it. It takes the old 10K races to a whole different level. You’ve actually done three different levels. Can you talk about how you got involved in that and what that’s all about and what the actual Trifecta means?
I’ve always been athletic and I talked about that. In college, I got started on marathons and I came off my mission, getting back into athletics and I started back in the marathons. After a while, the marathons got a little bit, I sound rude saying this, but they got boring. It was just 26 miles. There was nothing challenging and hard about it anymore. Once you go 26, you can do it again. I started looking for a different challenge. I wanted something that would push me. Something that maybe was a little bit crazy. One day I saw these obstacle course races, these Spartan Races and my first thought was, “That was a little too far. That’s impossible.” These guys are jumping over fire and going through mud, that’s insane. By the next breath, I realized, “I’m going to try it. It might be a little insane for me, I might not be able to do it but until I give it a shot, who am I to tell myself? My whole life, there had been people trying to tell me I can’t do stuff. Why am I going to try to tell myself I can’t do stuff?” Very soon, I signed up for a race and I just signed up for the shortest one and I went and competed in it.
What distance was that?
Just the four-mile, the sprint.
Were there obstacles in that?
Yeah, about twenty obstacles including rope climbs, your bucket carries, your sand bags, just a bunch of different obstacles.
That was the short one and then you went to the next one, you’re now on two.
After that I was pretty beaten but I decided, “I finished. I might as well try another one.” I did the Super, which was eight miles and I finished that one, jumped over the fire at the end. I wasn’t quite sure if I was going to get burned doing that or not but I made it through. Then the Beast, the thirteen plus miler was in my head and I wanted to get that done. The next year, it didn’t work out. We decided to add our fourth child to our family.
You get the first one done, then the second one done, are you saying you completed the third one or you got delayed?
I did a Super at the beginning of that next year, which was actually last year. I was planning on doing the Trifecta that year but it didn’t work out because we adopted a child and it was right during the last races. This year, this was my year to finally get that Trifecta and the Trifecta is doing the Sprint, the Super and the Beast all in one calendar year. I did the Super and the Sprint and then I was facing down the Beast, thirteen miles. I had never done something like that before. I do these whole things on my hands so my wheelchair isn’t involved at all. I’m completely scooting along on my bottom and on my hands. I went after this thirteen miler and I went ahead and I finished. It took me ten and a half hours to do but I finished it and I got done. I completed that Trifecta. Finishing that race really, so far in my life I plan on doing a lot more, but has been one of the greatest achievements of my life today.
When I talked to Joe about this, it’s a really great marketing thing in terms of trying to really keep people motivated. It’s just not a race like the Manhattan Beach 10K and of course there are other ones but if you tie them all together and then a create a Trifecta award, just keeps people going and engaged. If you’ve got that one, then move on to the next one and then obviously, there are different locations all over. On the thirteen-miler, were you on a mountain doing this or were you on a flat surface? I’ve done the Tough Mudder so I understand about what these races are about. They’re crazy, they’re tough, they’re hard. Were you on a mountain?
Yeah. I did the Super in Utah and that was a little bit steeper because it went up the ski slope. This one wasn’t as steep but it was all through the woods. It was up and then down and up and down, up and down. There was tons of mud pits. You run along the river on loose gravel. You’re going through some sandy areas. It was just about everything. The bucket brigade, you have to carry it up a hill, down a hill, up a hill. There are plenty of hills involved in the race.
You’re like pulling yourself with your hands. That’s how you’re moving, right?
Yeah. I scoot, put my arms forward and swing my body through and put my hands down and swing my body through.
Your guns must have been pumped. That’s a long way to be doing that. I can’t imagine.
It’s exhausting. Thirteen miles, that was no joke. When I’ve done the eight mile, I was tired after that but you go that long and then you have to start worrying about the energy you’re putting back into your body. That’s one thing I still haven’t figured out is how to refuel properly so that I can go longer.
All these mountain climbing stuff I do. I’m trying to do the Seven Summits, that was a big issue for me out of the gate is just really understanding the nutrition game and really fueling your body to win. I’m much better at it now and there are a lot of little tricks. You and I can talk about this some other time but it’s really helped but if you don’t have, you’re not replacing those calories, you’re running your car on empty. It doesn’t work. I totally appreciate what you’re saying; the amount of energy you must have been expending as you’re going through this. There are a couple more things I want to ask you. Let’s talk about the book, Rise Up. Where did that come? Tell me about Rise Up.
The name alone, me and my wife, we’re trying to determine exactly where it came from. I think I’ll credit her with that. She said, “Rise,” and I’m like, “Rise Up.” It fit from the very moment we thought of it but it is everything. This book tells of all the struggles I’ve had throughout my life. Throughout my life, I’ve had people say, “Are you on disability? You should get this special treatment than that. You don’t need to do this workout. You don’t have to do this and that.” Even as a kid, they tried to stop me from playing basketball because they were afraid I’d get hurt. For years and years people have said, “You really need to write a book.” Writing the book itself is the definition of my rise up because there has been nothing in my life that I have been naturally gifted at.
When I started wrestling, I was the worst and then my senior year, I took second place in State. When I did cross-country in a wheelchair, I was the worst. Then my senior year, I took Districts. When I started writing this book, I was awful. I look back on some of my first drafts and they’re just painful to read. As I type now, it’s so much better. The definition of Rise Up is throughout every single bit of my life. It’s about overcoming those challenges, overcoming my weaknesses and making them into strengths and now I can write. Now, I can express my stories and I can express my views and my motivation through the written word.
You just talked about overcoming challenges, and talk about the name of this podcast, Finding Your Summit. People don’t always look at these things in this manner. When things hits you in the face and it’s so easy just to get down on it and like, “Poor me and poor this and poor that.” They’re just these little blessings of opportunity to make something great out of something that’s a negative that other people will look at. Does that mean then you are on the public speaking tour? Do you go out and speak to others about this whole Rise Up concept?
Yeah. I’ve been public speaking since I was a kid but a couple of years ago, the Rise Up is my speaking business. I go wherever people want to listen to me. I travel all over the states speaking to different groups and different companies about this thing called Rise Up. It fits so well, every school age kid absolutely loves it. You get into corporate, business, any part of life, it goes into marriage. Marriage is constant work. This message really fits well with everybody because everybody on this Earth has some time and something where they have to find the strength to rise up.
You already got four kids. That’s a handful. I got two and I can play man-to-man. Now, you’ve got four and you go into zone defense. You’ve got four kids and now you’re going to go over to Ukraine and adopt a child. Where did that come from?
My wife, she is so amazing and she wanted to adopt. She really did. At the time, we just had three children but she wanted to adopt and I wanted to be supportive. I was worried about it. Two kids is a challenge, three kids is a challenge. I thought, “Getting any special needs child from a different country, I don’t know.” That’s going to be more than I can handle. We get a couple of months before we left to Ukraine and apparently, God had another challenge in mind as well because we found out she was pregnant too. Not only are we going over to Ukraine to adopt a child but we’re having twins in a way where you got two new ones pretty close to each other. I have found just like with any part of life, those challenges and let me tell you, we didn’t sleep for a good five months. I don’t know if we sleep that well now but we have found some incredible blessings and some incredible strength that’s come from adopting this wonderful kid and getting a baby tucked on the end of that as well.
Your kid, what are they ranging? What ages?
My oldest is nine years old and then the baby is just a year old.
You’re right in the middle of it. Mine are 19 and 21, so I’m on the way. I appreciate where you’re at in a complete way. We made this connection and now we’re really zooming in on what we’re going to talk about. I saw this YouTube video that’s seen by over a hundred million people, they call views. I watched this thing and it’s about five minutes long. I was literally almost drawn to tears. It is just so emotional and so powerful. It just shows your journey. You were in the Spartan Race and you’re were literally crawling over the top of fire going through it to get to the other side, climbing up, doing these crazy things, just really demonstrating that there isn’t anything in the world that you can’t overcome. One, I’m so proud of you. Two, it’s just an honor to be talking to you in this way after I watched the video and also this conversation. I have so much respect for people who their attitude is everything. I talked to a guy who’s an old Raider, a teammate of mine. He was on the pod. The first thing that came out of his mouth when I said, “Jerry, how are you doing?” He goes, “I wake up every day with an attitude of gratitude.” There’s no question that you do the same thing. You’ve got your priorities in line. You’ve got your faith in line, where you want to go, and impart great wisdom to others. People watch your video like this and you start looking at your own situation going, “Wait a minute, I think I might want to take that thing on. I didn’t think I was going to do before.
I’ve got some pretty amazing stories that have come to me through this process. People that have been going through a challenge in their life and because they were watching that video, they now found the strength to go and rise up and make something more out of their life. One that sticks out to me, a gentleman that had been in prison found some amazing inspiration from the video. It makes me embarrassed to say things like that, but I really want people to know that it’s possible. I think of myself as just a regular guy trying to fight the odds, make the most out of life. The more I realize, we all need motivation, we all need the extra push. Seeing somebody else conquering those challenges can definitely help us. I hope that I can help to motivate others.
What you just said is interesting because you’re right. I’m a pretty motivated guy, a pretty ambitious person, but I literally wake up every day, I do a five-mile run and I fill my brain full of positive information from other people. From a podcast, from somebody else’s what they do to an audio book rather than sit there and listen to stories that aren’t true or whatever, I love to talk to people who are doers. That’s what you are and that’s why it’s so impressive to see what you’ve done with Rise Up. It’s great.
Thank you. I appreciate it, Mark.
Where can people find you?
Kacey, you’ve been a total treat for me. I’m so appreciative of my buddy, David Gordon, for reaching out and telling me about you. These are the type of things that make what I’m doing possible and interesting .Lucky me, I get to be on the other side of the mic of all these different amazing conversations and today was no different. I totally appreciate it. Best of luck to you in the future with your five kids under nine years old.
Thanks, Mark. I appreciate that.